KS0pSwdQfbY&rel=1

 

 

 

A while ago there was some discussion about Dragonskin being a poor choice for Battlefield conditions...............

 

I dont know after seeing this former special opps Seal do this demo I was IMPRESSED!!

 

 

:klinked:

As said in another thread, by myself, with a slight edit --

 

Futureweapons does not speak for military testing. Yes, Dragon Skin is nice in its own conditions, but out in Iraq and Afghanistan (military standards), the glue that held the pieces together melted. It failed -- miserably, I'll have you know -- time and time again. I won't even address the fact that after some tests, the very FIRST shot went through COMPLETELY with a 7.62 round. Total penetration. That's a pretty large problem.

 

http://www.militarytimes.com/static/...00121may07.pdf

 

Take a look at that. I think that settles the debate.

 

If you still need more, this pretty much clears up everything you could possibly care to know...

 

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=14523

 

Let me stress: Dragon Skin's problem isn't stopping rounds. It's great at that, in SOME CONDITIONS. Its problem lies in standing up to the extreme conditions of today's combat, and environmental conditions.

 

It isn't some conspiracy to give our soldiers armour that won't save them, by the way. We're giving them the best that they can get right now.

Yeah it's true. I feel like if they really made the effort they could get the things to hold together better and then maybe the military woudl buy it, but not in its current state

It has potential. With the amount of dollars invested I bet their R and D is on it. Time will tell.

from what I heard it stops rounds just doesnt keep up with hot weather and stuff, man what would I do for a lighter armor cause the one we have now is so damn heavy it messes my back up if I wear it too long.

The link is dead....

 

 

Im not disputing its durability .....I saw this last night on Discovery so I looked it up as , This Discovery Video done by that former Special Opps Navy Seal was really impressive.

I guess they have some work to do................... :klinked:

Yeah I saw it when it was first on Futureweapons (that video Hutch posted is a clip from Futureweapons btw)

 

It looked extremely impressive.

 

I didn't know about the whole weather condition failure thing though... that sucks. You'd think that they could figure that one out though.

With the talk of Military conspericies I cna't help but think of how the US Military and Colt are in bed with each other...

I bet the Military cannot afford to buy these for the troops. There are alot of things out there that can potect soldiers, but not enough money to buy them. Thanks Bush. lol

just buy one or two less F22's and that should cover it. :klinked:

Some impressive stuff. Im sure we will hear more of this down the road once they start working out the condition issue. I agree with spcweihe...id like to see something lighter. Current armor is bulky and gets heavy quick.

Oh Colt is def. in bed with the Military... Its head is a retired Marine general I believe. I've heard nothing but horror stories about how the M16 and M4 perform in the desert... from people who have been there, not talking heads. There is a real simple fix, and H and K has created a version of the M16 called HK 416 (its something like that) that uses direct impingement to solve a lot of the jamming problems. Unfortunately only Delta Force/SF is allowed to use them at the moment. Its doubtful they will ever make it out to the whole military due to contracts. Im not making this stuff up, look it up.

Oh Colt is def. in bed with the Military... Its head is a retired Marine general I believe. I've heard nothing but horror stories about how the M16 and M4 perform in the desert... from people who have been there, not talking heads. There is a real simple fix, and H and K has created a version of the M16 called HK 416 (its something like that) that uses direct impingement to solve a lot of the jamming problems. Unfortunately only Delta Force/SF is allowed to use them at the moment. Its doubtful they will ever make it out to the whole military due to contracts. Im not making this stuff up, look it up.

Yea HK 416

 

I seen it! They did a demo on it on the discovery channel Future Weapons

 

the guy digs a hole in the sand and buries it then digs it up and fires a whole clip of rounds then throws it in dirty water reloads and fires again

 

then with the clip out and the dust cover open he throws it on the ground and pours dirt in the champer then picks it up shakes off the dirt loads the clip chambers a round and it NEVER jammed quit a show

I've heard about these HK416's. It sounds like the engineering is pretty solid. I wonder if they'll be beefing up the caliber to the 6.8 caliber round that I've heard rumors of.

 

ObXZMepn3SI

Personally, while the HK416 is impressive compared to the M16, I think there are better weapons out there....Most of which are made by HK. G36, G3, HK91, MP5, FAL, P90(would make a great weapon for pilots due to it's size). If I remember correctly the US Special Forces(and the likes) pretty much get to choose any weapon they'd like(within reason of coarse), and HK's USP line of pistols seems to the prefered pistol. My moddo is if there is something out there better and can help save american soldiers lives than it should be available to them.

Yea HK 416

 

I seen it! They did a demo on it on the discovery channel Future Weapons

 

the guy digs a hole in the sand and buries it then digs it up and fires a whole clip of rounds then throws it in dirty water reloads and fires again

 

then with the clip out and the dust cover open he throws it on the ground and pours dirt in the champer then picks it up shakes off the dirt loads the clip chambers a round and it NEVER jammed quit a show

-Sigh.- We've already covered this, Hutch. Future Weapons is not a valid source of information.

 

As in the Future Weapons video of Dragonskin, we see the entire front of the armour being ripped off from the grenade and they treat it like it's something fantastic. That's a fail. Apparently not for them. They don't care if their soldiers are running around sans armour, I guess.

 

Furthermore, if it's the HK 416 video I'm thinking about, the dust cover was closed when they submerged it.

 

EDIT: Yup. Watched the Future Weapons clip again -- dust cover closed when placed in sand, and the water is only deep enough to reach the magazine, not "fully submerging" and "seeping into every orifice" as they claim.

The only advantage of the HK416 is that the bolt (theoretically) will stay spotless, since the gas piston is moved to above the barrel, replacing the gas tube. I have personally fired a gas piston fully auto AR-15(only fully auto firearm I have ever fired), made by POF(goggle if you'd like) locally in Phoenix, about 2 years ago. And the bolt hardly gets any sort of debris on it. But obviously this system doesn't provide any advantage over the current M16 when it comes to dust and extreme condition. The M16/AR15/M4 is an old system that needs to be replaced, but probably won't until something like the XM-8 can pass biased testing.

Personally, while the HK416 is impressive compared to the M16, I think there are better weapons out there....Most of which are made by HK. G36, G3, HK91, MP5, FAL, P90(would make a great weapon for pilots due to it's size). If I remember correctly the US Special Forces(and the likes) pretty much get to choose any weapon they'd like(within reason of coarse), and HK's USP line of pistols seems to the prefered pistol. My moddo is if there is something out there better and can help save american soldiers lives than it should be available to them.

yea Hk is great they had a whole display at the last gun show ..pretty pricey tho lol

The HK is already used by Delta Force.... So there is definitely truth behind its reliability advantage over the Colt range. Yeah, Im sure the future weapons demo was exaggerrated, but the weapon is still far superior to the standard M4/M16.

 

Also, there are no plans to switch to 6.8mm. They looked at it and nixed the idea. Instead they will be going to lightweight and semi-caseless ammo by 2014 I believe. They already have prototypes of the new ammo as well as a prototype 8 lb (yes, just 8 lbs) M249 SAW. We'll just have to make do with the M240's and M14's(which they are now re-issuing not just as sniper weapons) for higher caliber support.

statement withdrawn

The HK is already used by Delta Force.... So there is definitely truth behind its reliability advantage over the Colt range. Yeah, Im sure the future weapons demo was exaggerrated, but the weapon is still far superior to the standard M4/M16.

 

Also, there are no plans to switch to 6.8mm. They looked at it and nixed the idea. Instead they will be going to lightweight and semi-caseless ammo by 2014 I believe. They already have prototypes of the new ammo as well as a prototype 8 lb (yes, just 8 lbs) M249 SAW. We'll just have to make do with the M240's and M14's(which they are now re-issuing not just as sniper weapons) for higher caliber support.

The new M60 is quite a bit lighter and it can be fired for long durations without melting the barrel. The video I saw showed it going through two boxes worth of ammo (they were linked) without letting off the trigger. Don't know the exact process of barrel making that makes it different.

 

IMO the doctrine behind the using the 5.56 round is flawed. Jihadi's won't be pulled off the line to help a wounded (not dead) comrade. Likewise with China (heaven forbid) they would likely try to overrun positions with sheer numbers.

 

We need something that causes grievous bodily harm no matter where on the body it hits. Yes a 5.56 round will do damage, but not as much as the 7.62. I think we need a heavier round that will tumble less and carry more kinetic energy into the target while not sacrificing accuracy at distance.

 

My vote, something in the 2.43-2.70 caliber range.

5.56 is definitely on the small side for long range fire. I've always been surprised we don't supply something larger for the troops we send into more rural areas.

 

On the plus side, There is a ton of R&D going on at the moment for new rifle cartridges.

5.56 is definitely on the small side for long range fire. I've always been surprised we don't supply something larger for the troops we send into more rural areas.

 

On the plus side, There is a ton of R&D going on at the moment for new rifle cartridges.

Double edged sword....the problem with the larger cartridges(7.62) is OVER penetration, which can lead to collaterial damage. I would presume that's one reason why SWAT prefers the MP5(9mm) to the M16/M4/AR15(5.56), but I have nothing to prove my "theory".I think the 5.56 is a great round, not the best for all circumstances but still a great round. I have always felt the US Armed Forces needed to have atleast 50/50(with 5.56/7.62) at the very least, maybe more 7.62. ANd there are a lot of great 7.62 choices out there, I personally love the HK91/G3/CETME...I had a "cheap" imported one that was pretty much dead accurate with it's beautiful iron sights. Also the FAL is a VERY versital weapon platform(see here for gun pron http://www.dsarms.com/products.asp?dept=36 ).

Well, if I'm sitting on a mountain top shooting at someone 600 yards away I'm not worried about over penetration. That's more of a civilian/paris hilton issue.

 

My point was both rounds have a place. Not that I want city cops using AR-10s to sweep buildings.

Well, if I'm sitting on a mountain top shooting at someone 600 yards away I'm not worried about over penetration. That's more of a civilian/paris hilton issue.

 

My point was both rounds have a place. Not that I want city cops using AR-10s to sweep buildings.

True that. The MP5 is being discontinued. One of my patients is on the local SWAT Team and they all went to UMP 45's.

 

I like the idea of a 50/50 mix of the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. That would give us greater knockdown power in urban combat scenarios.