You really think so?See it like this: The dems take out one from the bunch of candidates they have. Now what choice have the people of the candidates that lost? Vote for Bushes? They hate his politics, all dems say that. So in order to overthrow Bushes and take back the One Ring of Power and ascend to Throne of Barad Dur, they need to unite against Bushes.At least all the propaganda says, that people of the Land-of-the-Free-Home-of-the-Brave in great peril can unite against a common threat. Which, in case of dems is Saur....... emmmm Bushes.My hopes go with them...... damn i hate democracy as well as duplicity.

At least all the propaganda says, that people of the Land-of-the-Free-Home-of-the-Brave in great peril can unite against a common threat. Which, in case of dems is Saur....... emmmm Bushes.

My hopes go with them...... damn i hate democracy as well as duplicity.

You heard it from Ky! Down with that evil Capitalist Bush...DOWN WITH DEMOCRACY! (or so to speak) The Democratic party is alive and well in old parts of the USSR and surrounding area.

 

Dang Ky I WUV YOU! You help me prove my points.

 

http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/PostWar.html

State that is funny Ironically Russia had its revolution to oust the Czar because of the large masses of peasantry and working poor that were ignored (if not ridiculed) by the nobility and ruling classes (i.e. the wealthy). Carl Marx was heavily influenced by Jesus' social reforms (in spite of the fact he denounced the church/religion because of its political and economic ties to the Czar and wealth). I do not find wealth a problem any more than Marx. What I do have problems is for those who regard it more than the working poor who could use retraining, education, technical schools, etc, which most working poor have no access to because they are unable to network in the structures that avail themselves to the ruling classes. I hope we, in the U.S. that is witnessing a greater divide between the haves and have-nots than anytime in our history will not see the vacum filled by another radical like Marx. It would behoove theRepublican party to find ways to help socially as this may avoid a grim social future. Read "Habits of the Heart" pub. 1990 (?) written by a group of sociologist who do a modern study on American values using a social science study done in 1820. Very enlightening. I would honor your opinion.

Joe the facts are IF people acted as they should poverty would not be a big problem. From the side of people helping others AND people helping themselves. Any way you slice it...no where in the bible that I have found says the GOVERNMENT should pick up the slack. I think it is our job as Christians to take that part of helping people, but this can be done on an individual basis. Some people in our country do not believe in the bible should they be exempt? Do you not think witnessing to people you are helping would be a much better option than mailing them a state check? Granted I am not an expert on the bible...I just thought there would be less abuse of that system along with more people hearing the word.Just my thoughts....I will look into that book. Anyway got to go eat with my wife...will pick this up later.

-StateCop]You heard it from Ky! Down with that evil Capitalist Bush...DOWN WITH DEMOCRACY! (or so to speak) The Democratic party is alive and well in old parts of the USSR and surrounding area.

 

Dang Ky I WUV YOU! You help me prove my points.

 

http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/PostWar.html

I dont quite get, what you meant by that.

Capitalist Bush? Even a capitalist pig needs to be quite ruthless, but not STUPID for cryin' out loud.

Down with democracy? Somebody said, that it is the best of the systems. Only in theory. It was thought by dreamers, who have left the reality by halucinogenic overdose. The fact is there is no working system for a rotting and egocentric and soon-to-be-donewith of species called homo-homo-homo. All the systems are created just to cloud the eyes of the common people for the benefit of few (be it democracy, republic, communism, despotism, fundamentalism......).

Democracy in USSR and Co.? Well of course. As we have here, you also have a democracy (dont correct me, that youre a republic, you know what i mean). But the little thing is that the more words 'democracy' you hear, you can be sure the less democracy there is. Must be some mind trick or something. And dont try to tell me that the republicans there are not democratic in the most basic meaning of the word. For need i remind you, that USSR was also a republic, just as Poland under communism (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and PeoplesRepublic of Poland)? Its just a meaningless name. Something to cover the governmene pages with.

 

And just what was that link supposed to prove? I personally see that a person, who wrote it, mustve been altering history or at least picking up only the little tiny pieces that fall with the view of the current Big Brother. It might as well be written by Bushes himself. You know, all that blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-enslaved country-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-no democratic elections-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-protests-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-im just stupid, record it-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-fight for freedom-blah-blah-blah-and on and on and on this goes without really proving a point. What was yours?

 

 

PS I edited this text like 50 times. Now, becouse of the late hour i have no idea, whether what i have written makes sense even to me. I should be fuly charged in four weeks.

Actually I had no point to the link...just a little bit of history of Poland. I just scanned it as it was one of the first to pop up on my search from google. I was searching for political info to show any parallels that your country may have with ours. Say the Democrat party here would be most closely parallel wich party in your country. That is all... Because as you may could tell I am interested in political issues and the history behind them. Not to mention I have several theories on the subject...that may transend Geo-political boundries. Call it a sickness I guess. It is one of my few hobbies outside of computers and work.Thanks for the info you have give so far though.

I used to be one of the "have-nots". I dragged my sorry carcaas out of the gutter, got myself trained thanks to a goverment program known as JTPA, and got myself working.Now I'm paying off a home and hold down a decent job.Point being... I WORKED for this. I wasted 10 years of my life blaming the rich for all my problems. In the end, it was only ME holding me back... not the rich like some peaple would lead me to believe. It wasn't nearly as hard as the naysayers would have you believe. Oh, yes, I even fought my own form of prejudice as I was a long haired male at the time. I fought the stereotype of being "Some stoner" or "Hippy Love Child" and managed to make a success of myself thru my own blood and sweat.I had a "Hand Up", not a "Hand Out" like some of these programs that our out there. Giving peaple free money for just sitting around popping out children sickens me. We need more programs like JTPA that give the money straight to the peaple who trained me.Cop, you are right. Christians need to get off their asses and go out there and help peaple. Problem is, they're so caught up in their little witch hunts half the time nothing gets done! I was once blessed (yes, I consider it a blessing, the experiance taught me alot) with poverty. I lived in a homeless shelter run by a church... a church that was more concerned with making themselves look good and shoving their dogma down my throat than really helping us.But that's beside the point, we can sit here and talk about how peaple need to do this and need to do that. But how many of us actually do it? Do you realise how much of a better world this would be if every single one of us, regardless of religion or creed, took the time to help?? When was the last time any of us did anything just out of the goodness of our hearts? When was the last time you gave to a charity without thought of the tax writeoff? When was the last time you offered to help an elderly neighbor with her yard chores or do her shopping? When was the last time you took food to a grieving family?I'm sure you all know that answer... very few of us do... and this is why the world is in the shape it's in. The truth of the matter is, WE'RE ALL TOO LAZY TO DO IT.So as a result, we tell our goverment to do it. We're too lazy to moniter what our kids read and see, so we ask our goverment to regulate television and have certain web sites closed down. We're too lazy to go give that poor or sick person a hand up in life, so we ask our governement to do it for us. We're too lazy to learn to be responsible, so we ask our government for the protection to destroy our unborn children).No, I don't hate my government... I despise humankind. The stupidity and lazyness of mankind is so stupifying, it absolutely amazes me that a God can take an interest in us and show mercy.We kill each other in the name of our gods!We commit atrocities upon ourselves!We argue about these innane and stupid policies, but don't get off our asses and do anything ourselves!We complain about the goverment, but don't vote!But who the hell cares, right? I'm just whining again... But shoot, I sure as hell feel alot better having vented that.I didn't start this with the intention to vent. But as I thought about how I dragged myself out of a dead-end life to where I am now, I find it very hard to be sympathetic when I hear other's caterwaul about how the rich are keeping down or exploiting the poor. And the more I think about how many peaple complain about how the world is in such a sad sad state but so few actually do anything, it made me furious.But as for the subject at hand.... Bush... seeing as most my views mirror that of the Republican party... he'll have my vote... even though I don't like him much. Because quite frankly, I have yet to see a Democrat or Independent that I mistrust less than I mistrust Bush. Such a pity the ballot doesn't have a "none of the above" box.

Dead you are very wise....I couldnt have said this better. Our programs should be more aligned to training as Bush said. Just as the program you went through. I also went to college on a Grant. The money was minimal but helped me get through school. Now I am not one of the rich but we live better than some. It is all how hard one wants to work for it...we shouldnt reward someone for sitting there at home making babies being a sloth (which is referenced in the bible I believe...will have to look it up)*on a side note I am very impressed with the diversity we have in this group even though we all do not agree on issues. I think we have all learned from this thread. Nice topic bangbang.... I think we have covered more all the topic and just about solved the world problems from our chairs I just wanted to say thanks for everyone (even Ky) for chipping in thier 2 - 5 cents. I got my full .99 in there

now if only our goverment would listen to us, like there supoosed(sp??) to.

Too true Dead

I'd like to quote myself from an old forum from a similar discussion

 

"We, humans, are doomed as a species."

and I believe that is true

it may not happen in my life time, or the next, or even the next 15, but one day, some guy with a happy-go-lucky amount of bombs is going to get up on the wrong side of the bed and say "Screw it." and he's gonna click the little red button of destruction. A single explosion is all it takes.

 

And if that doesn't happen, then we'll destroy ourselves from the inside.

I believe, right now, the media is currently running the world. Twisting words, ruining people's lives, and making people believe something totally obsured.

 

But sadly, you can not fix these problems stated above, or the problems Dead pointed out. You can't fix them in a day, you can't fix them in a week, you can't fix them in a year, or even 2. It will take decades before we come to realise that we are flawed in almost everyway.

Murder

Lies

Stupidity

Anger

Genocide

Corruption

Blackmail

Greed

all of these will be here until the day all of the lights on Earth blink out in a single second.

 

search for a song called "Do the Evolution" I forget who its by, but Todd Mcfarlen does the animation, and I think it shows a good example of what we've gone through and what's going to happen.

WOW! This is great conversation wish I could get this kind of gut check stuff in the church but unfortunately I think most of our middle class mainline folks are too fearful to look in the mirror and see the implications of being in a human family.?I just want to say I agree with a person doing for them selves in whatever way they can! That is a fact. It is also a fact, however, that we were created, I believe, to live in community, not isolated me-against-the-world individuals. In as much as all of nature is interdependent for its survival (ecology is a great teacher of life, I think Jesus (that man born in a barn) used analogies of creation) so, also, we are by nature interdependent with one another and creation. No one can claim independence from the air, the sun, its nutrients, the foods stuff and vegetation, its water, etc. I think it nonsense when anyone understands themselves in creation as independent.?The same holds true socially. We, individually, are social creatures and influence, shape, redirect, etc, by virtue of our lives and decisions made for us, by us, around us, about us from all involved. How much and what degree is a matter of subjective experience and opinion.You and I, DeadRoach, seem to have walked a similar road. I am the only one in my family of origin (4 children, I is the baby!) who was able to go to college and earn a degree. In 1979 I was long haired, a hippie girl wannabe, druggy, all the terms you got labeled with that you have mentioned and more. At the urging of a Lutheran pastor who believed in me I decided to get my GED (I quit high school in pursuit of the rock & roll dream!) and enroll in college. Like you, I worked my ass off, lived at home (till I was sick of it!) and got lots of grants and loans (which took me about 12 years to pay off). I am proud of what I have been able to accomplish, but I will never forget those who helped. A mentor believed in me (even when I was ready to give up). You cannot put a value on this!!! My folks let me live rent free while I perused education. I am white (you cannot deny that skin color doesn't still open/shut some doors). I am male (cannot be denied that women still make or less for same work/effort). AND, government had funds available for this!!! I was dam lucky to get into the school funding programs during Pres. Carter's term because Reagan cut about of it a few years into his 1st term!) Later in graduate school my wonderful wife helped support us and pay for schooling. I am sure this is not an exhaustive list, but my point is we all need a hand up as you put it so that we can feel good about our individual productivity for the whole of society (i.e. giving back as Ted Kennedy so eloquently stated in the 1980 Democratic Convention btw one of the best speeches of the 20th Century in my humble opinion). I believe in education and training. As Tom Brokaw rightly argues and documents in his book, The Greatest Generation, The GI Bill after WW2 was the government welfare program for millions of GI's without jobs and education that arguably made The United States a sustained world power over the following decades.My point is why can't we offer this free education to millions of our unemployed, underemployed, poverty paid working poor of this country??? I think it would revolutionize not only our country, but the world! Many of the less fortunate and working poor have no one to instill confidence, a belief in themselves (they get plenty of bashing and putdowns however!). Many come from a generation's history of social labeling, disenfranchisement and outright eco/social racism. As for handouts, I don't think anyone should get a free ride, however look up in Google how much of the total U.S. Federal Budget is spent on welfare? programs for deadbeat moms/dads. I think you will see it is quite negligible and a worn out stereotype of government allocations used by political pundits who rely on the ignorance of people who will not educate themselves and investigate the real numbers!!! It is laughable when compared to other programs such as Medicare/Medicaid (unless your ready to uninsure millions of children and elderly) and by far and away the largest expenditure, the military budget (now incredibly ballooned by so-called Homeland Security!) Look up the numbers, look at the federal line items and STOP believing the rhetoric of political parties!!! I too Unwanted get pretty cynical about our future, but I truly believe in the deep spirit of humankind that we all know what we need to do to live lives that are blessings rather than destruction. Unfortunately life can overwhelm and disease this sacred knowledge, so it takes intentional work, prayer, etc to keep hope and perserverence at the forefront. If, indeed, we do self destruct, then we really have nothing to lose in living lives that are positive and hope filled. Not sure what to say State about children in the Bible except to say that children had no intrinsic value in the ancient world accept to pass on family names and work. It was usual practice to kill most baby girls because they were not seen as work valued, only as reproductive in nature. This is why it was so radical when Jesus held up a "worthless" child in the midst of adults (who supposedly know better) and claimed The Kingdom of God in their midst! Quite a reversal of what was considered powerful, useful, important, etc. Wow! Let's keep this up! Great stuff!

With all of the people coming out saying they are going to run for president on TV talk shows......Maybe...nah....well ok...MAYBEI should run for the oval office and come out as an option! j/kYOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! STATECOP FOR PRES in '08!*paid advertising from the statecop's republican advancement group*

LOL!!! You go State!!! :mrgreen: But you might want to sell your soul to corporate backers (unless you already own one!) who can finance your campaign! 8) Of course *cough* you could recycle some of the contraband you run across in your present vocation *cough*! :shock: BTW, if I get quoted about this I will deny saying it, only "heard" about it from some "unknown source"

lol....I am securing corporate support as we speak :PI just have to keep my values.....I would be one that would stick to my guns...like what I say or not.

True that bro!

Actually I really would love to be elected to congress or senate. Maybe one day I will run for something. I have thought about a state level rep to start with, but I can not do it with my job....so it may never happen. :PI am in that "catch 22" where I love what I do but I want to be in politics too!

Run after the dream my friend... do not look back years from now and say, "what if" or "I wish..." Its never too late. But I appreciate the "catch." :shock: Wouldn't it be great if REAL reform was made on campaign contributions and more REAL people like your self can be heard and dialog with the public. This is an important critical peice of the democratic system that is missing that was essential in the first hundred years of our country. Every town and city had a civic center (sometimes churches were used as they were centrally located and were already the center of social activities). This was the way the public had opportunities to be involved, dialog, in the political process. Back then EVERYONE showed up and got involved (of course women, as a general rule, did not actually speak directly but through the husbands... some would say the bedroom... ouch!). Today, however, most people are skeptic, feel left out, overworked, and just plain cynical about a system that is largely corporately paid and bought for for those who already are in families/inner circles of power. Again, "Habits of the Heart" (book, NOT the movie) does a great job distilling the changes of our society and the differences in todays geo/political society.

Actually Pres. Clinton (who had read and studied "Habits of the Heart") and got the idea of "reviving" the "town hall" meetings. I think, as limited as it was, it was refreshing to a public who in 1989 felt "out of the loop" in political debate. He even brought this to the so-called Gen X crowd on MTV!!! Quite clever actually. Now almost all politicians do this but I suspect how much of it is real dialog and what is just mear cosmetics for political appearence!

-StateCop]With all of the people coming out saying they are going to run for president on TV talk shows......

 

Maybe...nah....well ok...MAYBE

 

I should run for the oval office and come out as an option! j/k

 

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! STATECOP FOR PRES in '08!

 

*paid advertising from the statecop's republican advancement group*

 

you'l have my vote

I actually entertained a theory that a poor man canidate could probably run a decent campaign in this day in age thru the wonders of the internet. Pop up a page, start sending out links... but it is really hard to compete with the mass media of TV without the big bucks, especially when the inevitable mud slingign starts.

but, you could still get a good showing, and you could aks for doniations, you wont get asmuch money as the "big" cannidates but i think that you could get enough to be respectable.

Just when you thought it was dead

 

I found something today that sparked my politcal fire again!

 

GW mentioned something about BS law suits ( I paraphrase ) but at any rate he wants to cut down the lawsuits that should never happen and as always the dems have a problem with this. Now I find the latest think dealing with these lawsuit happy leeches that make money like this. This hit home with me and I am sure will with most of you! Check the news article I just posted about a person getting a patent on online gaming, stat, leagues and other like computer gaming things.

 

http://www.fa-thearmory.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=189

omg, is this guy seriuos, how does this affect [TA]

meh, I smell loopholes.....I wouldn't worry too much about it. Think of some other companies that partake in online gaming, such as Microsoft and Sony. I bet their lawyers will beat this patent into the ground.At least with all the harm that people have been pointing out that big business does to our society, its nice to know that at least they're looking out for the community over the individual, right chaplain? :wink: