StateCop Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 Gator and I talked about this and wanted to get some input on how we are going to change or alter our rule. We have talked about it a little and want to know what you guys think. First let me give you my take on what I think should go into our new rules and the problems I see with the one we have currently. Ok we currently have a rule about spawn camping basically allowing it when your team has all the flag but not any other time (snipers exempt ). The problem with this is flags can change very quickly and if someone entered then the flags turned against his team or his team lost one he SHOULD leave. This of course is not known by most people who play on our server or the regulars that do it are forced to try and fight their way out if they notice the flag changed. So sometime we have people trying to follow our rule but either dont know about the flag change or just cant get out. People who dont get on ventrilo much dont know our meaning of spawn camping. They see others doing it at times and are not sure when it is ok and when it is not. It basically makes our spawn camping rule hard to enforce. What I suggest is say NO SPAWN camping mean just that as it refers to tanks and other similar type vehicles. If the spawn is uncapable there is really no reason to be there. Now I can see some exception here that are actually used by military units. The exceptions would be bombing from the air, snipers, and artillery. I also think we should make exception for pilots shot down to be able to steal a vehicle AS LONG AS THEY LEAVE or are making an attempt do to do with self preservation in mind. I think this will put a stop to all of our lame repair pad campers who only get kills shooting people as they spawn... Some people do not think snipers should be allowed but other than legit military tactics you could look at it as motivation not to all stand around waiting for that plane. Then people will have to move to get points. Not to mention the fact the kill ratio of snipers can be low as we know it can be hard to hit people at distances unless they skilled to say the least. The artillery I also think should be allowed because basically that is part of the snipers job. Bombing is kind up for discussion. So feel free to add your thoughts......I did. Quote
FINNER Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 i see no problem as long as snipers are allowed and arty points are ok Quote
Murdok Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 I say no spawn camping with vehicles, people ect even with all points capped. However, artillery, snipers, and bombing/strafing runs should be allowed as it goes along with what StateCop said: The exceptions would be bombing from the air, snipers, and artillery. I also think we should make exception for pilots shot down to be able to steal a vehicle Quote
Freak Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 i think it would be a good idea to change it to no spawn camping...it gives everyone a chance to regroup instead of frantically shooting anything that moves Quote
Jasun Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 I see too many problems with allowing any type of spawn camping.. snipers included.. basically as long as im a sniper i can be in the base as these rules suggest.. if im found.. i can slip into a tank and start mowing people down.. now since no one will just let a tank that mowed them down leave without trying to get some revenge.. exiting isn't an easy option so more rounds follow more people are mowed down.. the term spawn camper flys... admins games are disrupted to deal with a problem they probably didnt witness and have no way of knowing for sure what happend.. gameplay doesnt stop so a team loses a member or two to deal with a problem wich inversly effects the game in more ways then its all worth in the first place.. why not just make it easier on ourselves and make it cut and dry.. say no. I'm not saying shot down pilots should be kicked or banned or anything.. im just trying to make light of things that are overlooked in the game mainly the time the admin has to spend dealing with something they cant prove at all times.. leaving their team short handed... i personally dont mind that but some people do.. even some people who are on the team complain that someone is idle.. now.. if you want to say spawn camping by a sniper from outside the base is allowed that makes things better granted there are no cut and dry lines that define some bases and some common sense is required for this it does help with someone bending the rules just because they are a sniper.. Arty has a slow rate of fire and its easy enough to find cover in most cases.. and you can hear it coming in and usually see the flash from where so i see no problem with arty from outside the base as well.. the problem comes when thats all someone does because we say its ok.. wheel the howitzer up on a hill and nail people as they spawn.. it sucks.. its dirty.. but itll happen guess its just something that will have to be called "part of the game" unless people agree it shouldnt be done.. moveing on to helo's and fast movers.. some maps you spawn with a stinger.. some maps have none.. some maps you have to find them.. should those be considered "part of the game" as well? or should they also fit in to the get the hell out of the uncapable spawn rule.. personally.. i don't think this game is about kills its about flags.. get them.. you've got no buisness being somewhere where there isnt one.. its a team game.. you protect the flags you have, get the ones you don't do it right.. your team wins.. not you. yes i can see that stopping someone from getting to a flag before they get a chance to get into a vehicle or something is a tactic to win.. but in my opinion its a lame one.. I suppose i could write about this for hours but i'd much rather be playing.. so please note that these are just my opinions and that everyone is entitled to them and I in no way am out to make anyone angry.. i'm just telling you what i think Quote
Sam.Gen. Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 I understand what you mean Jasun, but I have to agree with statie. You and I both know it will be hard to keep that rule working Jasun. Statie's rules are good "What I suggest is say NO SPAWN camping mean just that as it refers to tanks and other similar type vehicles. If the spawn is uncapable there is really no reason to be there. Now I can see some exception here that are actually used by military units. The exceptions would be bombing from the air, snipers, and artillery. I also think we should make exception for pilots shot down to be able to steal a vehicle AS LONG AS THEY LEAVE or are making an attempt do to do with self preservation in mind. I think this will put a stop to all of our lame repair pad campers who only get kills shooting people as they spawn... " Quote
Jasun Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 why not say no spawn camping in armor then instead of falsely saying no spawn camping? Quote
StateCop Posted March 12, 2004 Author Posted March 12, 2004 Jasun I see what you are talking about but the typical sniper is not going to slip into your base to steal a tank. I have sniped from inside the base before BUT when found I usually dont have time to get a tank. If I think I need to leave I grab the fastest thing I can find and burn rubber. You can tell if someone is actually trying to leave and firing to protect themself rather than sitting there and fighting. I just dont think many snipers are going to do that....I know I wouldnt...it is so much easier for me to slip out on foot. You point is well taken and I am sure will be considered in the way we would word things.I think the main point is to stop the "base rape" by tank lamers on repair pads. Quote
StateCop Posted March 12, 2004 Author Posted March 12, 2004 why not say no spawn camping in armor then instead of falsely saying no spawn camping? After reading that...you sir may have a much better point. Rather than stating the exemptions. I mean sometime you have people with PKM/249 that lay down in spawn killing everyone that spawns...Do we want to allow that or not? I really havent thought about it until now... Is the ground soldier in bases typically a problem guys? Again good point Jasun... There maybe some loop hole I am over looking but what do you guys think about that? Quote
Jasun Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 just trying to point out that wording here is important.. your interpratation of a rule and mine are different if two admins have two interpretations.. sometimes players can do some things when one is on that they cannot with others.. this brings in more problems.. possibly flames and whatnot when all people want to do is have a good time playing and not have it ruind by someone who just wants kills.. so word things carefully and easy to understand for anyone whatever rules are decided.. i can think of tons of people who wait for oppertunities to exploit rules just to be a pain in the butt and have a crusade of badmouthing someone.. Quote
Jasun Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 lets see if i can simplify this a bit.. we want to allow snipers.. so thats no longer no spawn camping allowed.. we dont want repair pad campers at all in anything on repair pads inside the uncapable spawn.. we dont want spawn campers in armor inside the base at all? or just not on the repair pad? but arty from outside the base is ok.. aircraft of any type is ok.. the repair pad rule applys for aircraft as well..how about something like...No spawn camping inside an uncapable spawn at any time inside armor.No repair pad spawn camping inside the uncapable spawn (or) No repair pad spawn camping inside the uncapable spawn from aircraft (or exempt this rule all together)Arty from outside the uncapable spawn is acceptable.Tanks are discouraged from spawn camping outside the uncappable spawn. (Generally attending admin's discression)All rules are subject to the attending admin's discression if you are unsure of a rule please ask the attending admin. blah blah blah..change them put in things that are missing take out things that dont need to be there.. more ideas? less ideas? watermellons?there is no way of getting around interpratations there will always be someone that sees things different so adding things like attending admins discression is a good idea.. and if your unsure about something ask an admin blah blah its too late at night for this type of stuff.. im going to watch tv now :? this is why i didn't go to law school.....bet i wake up tomarrow and nothing i said makes sense to me anymore! Quote
LORD_ORION Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 The other problem is that some maps are far easier to sniper camp on then others, especially is there is more then 1 sniper. Bocage being a prime example. Sometimes I might as well just wait until the map changes because 2-3 snipers can cover the entire base and kill people 5-6 times in a row before they can even run for cover.I'd rather see the rules like this1)a)If you lose all your spawns, anything goes at the uncap spawn. 1)b)A grey flag does not count towards lifting legitmate spawn campers, you must actually own one flag 1st.1)c)When you regain a flag, enemies at your spawn must make an effort for a fighting withdrawl. 1d)If you own 1 flag, and it becomes grey again, the spawn campers that were withdrawing may return again. 2)a)Only indirect fire or air strikes on an uncapturable spawn if the enemy owns any flags. b)Snipers can fire into an uncapturable spawn, as long as they are shooting away from their base and into the enemy base. Getting setup behind the enemy base so you are shooting towards your own base is lame and should not be allowed unless the enemy has lost all his flags.Just my opinion Quote
Shotty Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 this is my main bain on TA, people sat in and around the base in enemy tanks.Whilst it makes you better it also pretty quickly destorys the gameplay.once a sniper is found, he cannot by any means compete with A. the tank that the guy that found him jumps in.B the assault rifle that he is being shot at with, C the radar vehicle, be it shilka, SA3 site, that he will be directing other team members to4 nto usually the other sniper that has found him, unless you are looking at him,.A plane can be taken down by the Numerous AAA, Stingers, other planes, on the maps, the same with a helo.Whereas an enemy tank can take 3 good RPG shots before its dead, thats even if you get one off downrange towards it. The only real defence against tanks is another similar tank, which you have to get to, and usually die trying. If they are sat on a repair pad the problem is multiplied 10fold, unless you can get near them with C4 or landmines which is hard.i dont think artillary falls under this catagry as it takes a while to get aimed, and most is relativly weak, also it doesnt actually have any specific killing ability, its more an "if you are near it when it hits" sort of killer (yes it does have the capacity to kill ALOT of people) but as wth a tank and its machine/main gun, it cannot activly pick off "the soldier with the RPG in base" unless they are within the blast radiusMAybe a proposed rule should be something along the linesNo armor within the Red Circle at any time - snipers and aircraft are the only exception. Quote
Shotty Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 just a side note, there are only 2 maps that i know of that you cant spawn with a stinger (on either side) and that is madina ridge and bocage, and grails/stingers are easily available from the boxes, and there is some pretty nasty AAA if you know hot to use it! (also madina ridge contains passive aircraft, 2 blackhawks and a slow-as-hell-hard-to-fly hind!) Quote
Deadeye Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 I got yelled at for spawn camping on the el alm-something or other map. I was using an m82, and I was lying prone on a hill knocking off anybody who made a move for the opposition heli's. At the time I didn't think it was camping because somebody could have easily jumped in a tank and blew me up. (I also didn't want to end it because it took me so long to get to that spot). At the time the flags were about even, but we were having a huge problem with enemy heli's, so I decided help my team out a little bit.On thing I do have a problem with, however.Last night we were playing berlin, and we were on the coalition team. For the entire map, all the opp. did was chuck nades into our spawn and MG anybody who actually lived long enough to find cover. This was extremly lame. But, with the rule that they can spawn camp if they have all the cap points means that they weren't doing anything wrong. What was really annoying was when Freak got up on a building near an ammo supply and kept dropping explosives on our spawn every 4 seconds.BTW freak, I hope you're happy with your 60-7 score, because you got me pretty pissed off at you for it. Quote
BWChip Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 It seems to me that camping rule should be the opposite. If you're going to allow camping at all, it should be while flags are still in transition (regular gameplay). Why would anyone want to stick around after losing their flags just to be pummeled in their own base?We allow vehicle stealing and fly-bys but waiting for spawners with your tank just isn't right. However, killing a spawn camper is pretty satisfying. Quote
E_NORM_US_1 Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 I'm fine with the snipers :twisted: but as for the spawn camping there is only one thing we can do is to allow it only when all flags are taken and these rule must be where people see them and i know that we get spammed alot in game ,but we can show them on screen during Games and mabe in between as well, so when i kick them they don't start crying , war is hell boys and its hard to put rules on war this is the way i feel have a nice day :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Quote
Freak Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 another idea is to make the rules very detailed to stop things from happening like Jasun's post Quote
Freak Posted March 12, 2004 Posted March 12, 2004 especially when i think it was either gods hand or sam gen was using the truck for "missions for Allah" lol we just kamakazied the truck into your base just for the heck of it THAT was good times Quote
Deadeye Posted March 13, 2004 Posted March 13, 2004 oh well, I'm past it now... Don't worry I'll make sure to keep an eye out for you *loads m82* :twisted: BTW, its deadeye, not dead-eye. Quote
Freak Posted March 13, 2004 Posted March 13, 2004 lol yeah it wasnt near an ammo dump tho...i just had a VSS and 4 c4's Quote
DeadRoach Posted March 14, 2004 Posted March 14, 2004 I think that tanks are indeed the real issue. And to a lesser extent, aircraft on maps like Bocage. I hate trying to make a set of rules for each map tho, I'd like to see things kept simple.With simplicity in mind, this is what I'd like to see.No spawn camping PERIOD. (This will eliminate the turning flag and didn't notice excuse)Snipers are okay long as they are actually "Sniping" (Eliminating one taking a tank there and saying "but I'm a sniper, I'm allowed")If you are shot down over a base, make a fighting retreat and don't linger. (one server had a "Run for your life, don't fight back" rule that I thought was stupid)Artillery strikes are allowed (Howitzers don't fire fast enough and usually rocket artillery is easy to find and has a sizable gap between barrages too)I have only one issue left, what if peaple use a long range weapon from their spawn? My feeling is you should be able to take them out. But that may cause problems with peaple crying "This guy is spawn camping" thus causing Admins to have to mediate. Thus it's my contention that we may have to have to consider not allowing peaple to use artillery or other long range weapons from the safety of their uncappable spawn except to defend it against snipers.On a side note, the reason I would allow Snipers is first of all, they can't stop the team from leaving if the player is intellegent enough. Second off, they discourage plane camping which I hate when 1/3 the team is doing it. A good sniper discourages this behavior. :)And Norm... yes war is hell. But in war you don't respawn. You die, it's game over. This isn't war, this is a game. But yes, just because it's just a game doesn't mean we shouldn't show consideration for the living breathing peaple who play it. Spawn camping causes alot of bad feelings, which is why the issue needs to be dealt with if we're going to have a productive and popular server without our admins having to stop their playing to referee every 5 minutes. Quote
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