ok, i know TA has come under fire so many times for allowing exploits on their server, but i wanted to just come here and voice my opinion, won't bother you again about it, but i was hoping to express an opinion about how it affects the rest of the community.i personally aviod exploiting on all servers at all costs, i think it's wrong to exploit a bug in the game to gain an advantage. what i'm seeing on TA these days is that people tend to spend more time trying to exploit than trying to play and have fun. that ruins the game for the other team and then everyone is just whining and unhappy. also, i get the impression that people tend to learn exploits on TA, then go on other servers and do the same stuff and get kicked/banned. the problem with that is that if a new player starts playing FA and learns an exploit on TA, then goes somewhere else, gets banned, they're gonna wanna quit FA.TA is by far the most popular FA server at this point. i would argue that the experience people have on your server tends to define their experience in this mod in general, and for someone starting a new game, joining the most popular server, and seeing people just exploiting bugs in the game, how does that make FA look :/anyway, i respect that it's your decision to run your server. i'm just pleaing with you to consider how your policies affect FA in general and i hope you'll think about it.thanks,Alex aka 3NF

I'm also against exploit and exploiter, i think it's killing the fun of the game. I agreed with you for that.But rule of that is : if it's in the game, that's the game. That's why i say nothing when i see someone exploit. I just go by an other way and let him exploit in peace. I hate play with this sort of player and i let play they little game where they are....Also i don't understand how a clan who is in the FAL league can let people exploit when we know that exploiting is illegal in FAL....

rgr, but you guys (i guess gator/sc) have the power to change the rules. i guess one way to think about it is that the creaters of the game didn't intend a lot of these bugs (mainly map bugs), and enforcing a standard of play that they intended would only be doing justice to the game itself and the people who worked so hard to make it good.

I think the allow/not allow exploit subject always come back on the forum since FA 2.65... i remember that we talked about that allready before i entred in TA (2 years in october). The decision was not allowed, allowed, allowed if u don't need a boost for make the explot and finally ALLOWED. I think that was the last choice and it will stay on that. Exploit is allowed and if u are not ok with that the only way that we have (u, i, everyone who is against exploit) is close our eyes and chose an other way.

during my early TA days, exploits were considered a naughtyand now, it's not3NF has a point, I usually end up running into people on certain maps more concerned about finding exploits than acutally playing, which somewhat takes away from the game

I wanted to put in my 2 cents (2 sterling) real quick: It seems people exploit. Yes, exploit.Now, If I log on to the site and ask how to do an exploit, it seems as though they don't want to tell me. Why? Well, probably they don't want to get cheated on the server. That is a really good point too. If exploiting is "legal" on the server, we want to know how to do it! Although it always seems like no one wants to tell you how to. What I'm getting at is, if you can exploit, tell us how to do it, or BAN exploiting all together!

What I'm getting at is, if you can exploit, tell us how to do it, or BAN exploiting all together!

I'm not ok with this deal. With that way everybody will start to exploit, the game will become a game where the best exploiter will win... a game like that have only one way in the future... in the recycle box of your desktop

well you have to agree that if exploiting is legal, we have the right to know how to do it.

i hope u're the only who is thinking like that.. If everyone start to doing that we have to found an other game than FA....The good reaction isn't ask how exploit but how COUNTER THE EXPLOIT.

i don't like exploiters as well.it really ruins the keypoint of the game,FUN!!!!!!!!!!if u constantley get killed by ppl using exploits u get frustrated and leave. NOW for new ppl i totally understand their reaction of being angry and leave the game and maybe the whole mod.thats why i think we have to be careful and might consider a change in our philosophy in that particular point,since 1 of our highest priorities as far as i understand ,is to create a nice atmoshere where ppl can gather together and have a lot of fun,next to our everyday life!!!!!!but thats just my personal opinion.regards

I am reading all this and it all sounds like a broken record, and is basically the same rhetoric I've heard over and over again. The Senior Counsel has discussed these issues extensively, and we came to a few conclusions:1) How do you define an exploit? 2) Who defines an exploit?2) Is one person's idea of an exploit the same as another?3) Should it be the server's responsibility to police these exploits, or should it be the programmers and map makers to correct the issues?3) Once defined (if possible) how do you enforce a suspected "exploit" so all Admins are on the same sheet of music? We had similar problems before where one Admin allowed a player to do whatever, only to be kicked by another Admin who said it was not ok.The term "exploit" is typically used by people who get killed by another and don't like it...simple as that. Some people think they are so damn good, and just hate it when a player kills them for whom they cannot own.We are always open to suggestions to make the game fair and balanced, so please give us some specifics where each "exploit" can be defined so each and every Admin would have a clear...very clear set of instructions on what they need to look out for. Also, remember that Admins also like to play and enjoy the game, and do not want to spend the entire game telling every new "Freshmeat" to get off of a cliff or whatever, or tell him to stand up so he can be shot by those who are "skilled".We have rules already in place...for example- We do not allow spawn camping- We do not allow any actions that would disrupt gameplay like blowing up ammo boxes, etc.- We do not allow swearing (cussing) or name calling to keep the game friendly. I must say that preventing this takes a lot of work just to maintain the peace.I hope I explained my (our) views here. We want you guys to have a fun time, but please examine all aspects of what you are asking. Give us clear and defined "exploits", and not generalizations.

Simple fact: Exploits are an issue of 'fairness'.

 

Simple fact: It is impossible to monitor the use of supposed 'expoits', and to prevent their use - much less objectively determine what is truely an 'exploit' and what is just a hapless use of game features and movement that incidentally brings an advantage (ie: crouchstrafe..).

 

Simple fact: It is therefore the most 'fair' for all 'fundamental' exploits to be allowed - which is inherently perfectly fair, because then anyone can do them, and there is nothing to whine about.

 

Simple fact: Having people constantly whining about exploits, people exploiting, and having constant argumentation over the issue is FAR more detrimental to a person's game experience than the 'moral stress' of having to learn and do them yourselves.

 

Simple fact: An exploit is in the eye of the beholder. Some people would consider my looping around maps and constantly coming from behind 'exploiting'. Some people get aggrivated because I wait for them to come to me, and don't rush at them like a blind ninny like so many other people do.

 

Simple fact: Regardless of whether 'exploits' exist or not, people are always going to find something to whine about. Especially when they're not winning. CS is a perfect example of this - go play on a cs pub... all you'll see is 'Camping @#$(*' '@#$(* awpers' .. all day long.

 

Simple fact: The only way to make a FA players game experience as good as possible IS to provide for an even baseline. What this means is, 'exploits' which cannot be objectively determined and proved on a consistent basis (ie, movement exploits) are allowed. This is the only way to ensure perfect fairness - everyone can do them, so nobody has anything to WHINE about.

 

Simple fact: 2.9 is out shortly, and one can only hope that some, albeit it is unlikely all, of these 'exploits' are resolved by the game programmers - who should be the ones responsible for them - as opposed to server administrators who simply should not have to put up with this crap.

 

Thanks.

 

What do I tell people when I'm accused of exploiting?

 

I tell them, if nobody did it I wouldn't, however - other people do, and instead of whining, I'd rather learn to 'exploit' (aka. USE) the inherent features of the game to the greatest advantage myself - then it's FAIR. Learning to exploit / maintaining fairness > whining and bitching.

Very well said K1Delta....A applaud you

- We do not allow any actions that would disrupt gameplay like blowing up ammo boxes, etc.

Blowing ammo boxes in spawn You mean. I remember some admin (SC probably) stating, that blowing up ammo boxes on the map (not spawn)was for 'strategic purposes'.

true that u can vlow ammo box on the map if it's for kill the ennemy. But blow the spawn ammo box is a reason for being kicked/banned

- We do not allow any actions that would disrupt gameplay like blowing up ammo boxes, etc.

 

Blowing ammo boxes in spawn You mean. I remember some admin (SC probably) stating, that blowing up ammo boxes on the map (not spawn)was for 'strategic purposes'.

I am referring to players who are on the same team as you, and not players from the opposing team. Players from the opposing team can blowup ammo boxes at will...it's part of the game... 8)

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...........

Simple fact: An exploit is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Simple fact: 2.9 is out shortly, and one can only hope that some, albeit it is unlikely all, of these 'exploits' are resolved by the game programmers - who should be the ones responsible for them - as opposed to server administrators who simply should not have to put up with this crap.

The above is pretty much correct. Personally, I don't exploit in pub games, and don't really care if other players do or do not, except when half a team is standing on each others heads and not playing the game.

Programming "bugs" and flawed/incompletely tested mapping in official maps is not the server's problem.

 

Let's say 2.9 brings more players and more servers. Will the community go to these new server renters/owners and say "plz don't allow players to do this, this, that, and 10 other things on specific areas of these specific maps, or you will be LAMELAMELAME!" Do you think that paints a favorable picture of this MOD in their eyes?

 

I understand that what you are trying to do is to make the game more balanced and fun to play, but again that is the MOD team's job not the individual server's. The only thing I could suggest is that a server could do is to run official maps only, but some of those have MORE exploits than unofficial/older maps.

 

What the community SHOULD be doing is leave the "bugs/game balancing" to the programmers and beta testers, and helping mappers test their maps to clip off and exclude those areas that would be "exploits" as well as creating balanced and fun gameplay.

What I do not see in the game is the talk of actually exploiting the game itself by using them Famas for example. Knowing how to use a weapon much better that anyone else is exploiting or taking advantage of the game.Delta I am sure uses Stealth and exploits that skill to gain an "Unfair but acceptable" advantage over his opponent.This is a good reason why we have a saying. "If it is in the game. It's in the game"Now on to things that we cannot control:Connection speedConnection locationThe type of Computer System you haveThe size Monitor one usesThe type of mouse you use. (5 buttons being superior over 3 buttons)Ones keyboard configurationAge and experienceHow you configure your FA. (Turning off Weather effects Etc etc)What videocard driver one uses. Open GL over D3DI am sure there are more.These impact ones play way more than people climbing up onto a roof that is there or getting assistance to do so. (ps_sandblast getting into to tunnel with help is OK?) Man if I in was a battle I would sure climb to the highest place to gain an advantage or hide(cam) so I could not be seen as well.We are not teaching anyone here something that will harm themselves or the game of FA.What they will get is a place to play where you do not hear you cannot use this, or do that, or climb there, or Famas jerk, or CAMMER etc etc.These last few things have helped kill the game of FA. Not the fact that we let people play the game as it comes to your harddrive.

What do I tell people when I'm accused of exploiting?

 

I tell them, if nobody did it I wouldn't, however - other people do, and instead of whining, I'd rather learn to 'exploit' (aka. USE) the inherent features of the game to the greatest advantage myself - then it's FAIR.

*sigh* I was just going to let this go. I wasn't going to say a damned word about this thread. Unfortuently, someone had to bring this point up.

Now, because of your position, you could also argue the same reason on why hacks should be allowed into the game. But they shouldn't. neither should exploiting. Besides, i believe [TA] did had a post on the FA forums about exploiting, and how they were going to stop allowing it to happen, and MANY clans were congratulating TA.

 

http://forums.firearmsmod.com/showthread.php?t=54313

 

Let me make that a little bigger for you people.

 

Map Exploit Defined: When a player intentionally maneuvers himself/herself to a location on a map where an opponent does not have a resonable chance of retaliating.

 

Mac also posts this post

 

saying if you guys could define something as a map exploit, you'd enforce it as such..

 

I'm very, very sure Alex, myself, Jeffy, or most FAL admins could get an "offical" exploit list from Mazor. He's said prone-strafing is an exploit, he's said that infinate stanima is an exploit, helm camming is an exploit, and a number of other things. Just seems, to me, that [TA] has promised one thing, and just gone around and done the other...

 

At the end of the 2nd thread i quoted Mac from, Gator says

 

Ok, I will accept your terms. However, before we can implement the enforcement of map exploits, we need a little help from you. You seem to be very knowledgeable about all the map exploits, so maybe you can help us out. Here is a list of all maps that are either playing on The Armory, or may be played in the very near future. Would you please outline, in sufficient detail, enough information on the exact location(s) of each map exploit(s), or at least provide a screenshot, so all of my Admins will know what to watch out for.

So my question to <TAC>'s senior council, is are you guys going to put up; or shut up about it?

Btw: None of this is meant as a flame towards TA, just attempting to point out TA's hypocrisy about the entire situation...

The definition you refer to still stands today, so where is the hypocrisy? The fact is is that I have not found one place where I could not get the other guy and terminate him; thus this is a non-issue. It may take a grenade or an M-79, but he will go down. You may not unable to get him a famas and heavy armor, but a player can reasonably terminate him.

Now, because of your position, you could also argue the same reason on why hacks should be allowed into the game. But they shouldn't. neither should exploiting. Besides, i believe [TA] did had a post on the FA forums about exploiting, and how they were going to stop allowing it to happen, and MANY clans were congratulating TA.

Many of the so called 'exploits' are INHERENT FEATURES OF THE GAME INCLUDED WITH THE DEFAULT INSTALLATION. Hacks, quite obviously, are not. There's the difference right there, and out the window goes that sad analogy / argument.

 

Map Exploit Defined: When a player intentionally maneuvers himself/herself to a location on a map where an opponent does not have a resonable chance of retaliating.

There are some 'map exploits' that I would absolutely positively agree with you that are unreasonable. For example, you can get 'on the ledges' in iwojima and you can see from above into the tunnels (and shoot there, too) when you opponents can't possibly see you. That is an example of a TRUE exploit that should be a bannable offense. The difference is, it's a MAP exploit, not something a person can inadvertently do. It's quite obviously intentional as opposed to certain other ones (wallrunning, 'bunny hopping', crouch strafing, 'camming').

Personally, I have never SEEN a real, true, flat out perfect 'cam'. If a person is shooting me, I can't remember an example where, after looking around and analysing things, I couldn't see a couple pixels of them and shoot back. But that's just me. Of course they're HARDER to hit, but still hittable.

 

I'm very, very sure Alex, myself, Jeffy, or most FAL admins could get an "offical" exploit list from Mazor. He's said prone-strafing is an exploit, he's said that infinate stanima is an exploit, helm camming is an exploit, and a number of other things. Just seems, to me, that [TA] has promised one thing, and just gone around and done the other...

Map exploits are one thing. Things like 'prone strafing' (which I did on a regular basis long before I EVER heard it was an exploit :roll: ) and other ones are an entirely different thing. A person can prone strafe for fine positional adjustment, quite easily and naturally. The fact that it inadvertently gives them an advantage by messing up their hitboxes, is not their problem. Simple fact is, as opposed to trying to enforce anything in regards to it, it'd be better if the other people would whine up, and learn to do it themselves.

Many of the so called 'exploits' are INHERENT FEATURES OF THE GAME INCLUDED WITH THE DEFAULT INSTALLATION. Hacks, quite obviously, are not. There's the difference right there, and out the window goes that sad analogy / argument.

There are also inherent features of the game included with the default installation, that will allow me to gain control of your server and forcibly take control of it. Yet, if i did it, you'd be complaining so much. Also, i suppose you're in complete agreement: I should be able to use mega's wall hack/zoom exploit script, as well as a few others that allows me to reload faster, make you be bright blue, use hacked models, and a hell of a lot of other stuff? I mean, hell, it's just default installations!

Map Exploit Defined: When a player intentionally maneuvers himself/herself to a location on a map where an opponent does not have a resonable chance of retaliating.

 

 

Personally, I have never SEEN a real, true, flat out perfect 'cam'. If a person is shooting me, I can't remember an example where, after looking around and analysing things, I couldn't see a couple pixels of them and shoot back. But that's just me. Of course they're HARDER to hit, but still hittable.

You've never looked then. There are 4-6 that i remember finding on sd_durandal, and that was after about 4 minutes of looking. They ARE out there, they ARE real, just because you don't think so doesn't make it so. Go out and test maps with some of the 2.9, 2.8, 2.7, 2.65, 2.6 testers. I did for less than 10 minutes and found a number of bugs that weren't fixed for 2.8; and i did this with CAL.

 

I'd love to tear the rest of your agument apart, and i will, but i've got company. I'll be back later to debate.

My biggest complaint (excluding the FAMAS of course) about Firearms is never usually mentioned, nor does anyone ever complain about it. It is predominately used by "skilled" players, and seems to be an accepted "exploit" by most players. I am referring to the dreaded.... [drum roll]

 

Zig-Zagger Exploit

 

This is my biggest complaint of all. I think this is the single most violated "exploit" of them all. People who bind there keys to move in a side-to-side (sometimes circular) motion to avoid getting hit. In fact, I don't believe the hits actually register properly on the receiving player because of the limits in HL. You never, ever, hear anyone complaining or mentioning about people using this "exploit", but most of the "skilled" players use it consistently to avoid getting hit.

 

Even though I do not like it, I would nver ban it or tell a player he cannot use it. Why? Because it is part of the game.

I've just read all the posts... and exploit is a really important case in Firearms. When you're playing on a map and get killed by enemies on a place where they normally can't go it's very annoying - and it kills the fun you have playing this game. Example : people on the top of a building (they used teamamtes to jump on their head to go up), people in sky, people proning behind elements and using the scope just at the good line to see while being invisble (it can be done on ps_coldwar and ps_desertcrisis, juste behind dunes).FA is a game, people play it for fun. I play if for fun. But some people play it to have the best frags / deaths ratio possible... and to do that some of them them exploit or use cheats. Cheats are not allowed, and it's a good thing. But exploits are allowed. You'll tell me "what is an exploit ? what can be considered as an exploit ?"Exploit is using a bug of the map, giving an advantage. I don't care of people using a "terrible weapon combo" as FAMAS + full heavy Armor. Heavy armor ? don't care. Aime the head. FAMAS ? don't care. If he doesn't kill with the first clip, he is dead. But when I see someone using a mapbug... even if he doesn't kill me... it's lame. The game wasn't create for that. The game was create for people to have fun. It is fun to see people destroying the game by exploiting ? no. As it wasn't fun to see people destroying the game by cheating.Many things in the game are lame but it's part of game and I accept them (as claymore in manual, camping with a machinegun or the barret - these weapons are made for staying at a spot and defend / snipe). But the bugs aren't made to be used. Bugs aren't supposed to be.And saying "it's in the game so you can use it" is a little easy... the FAL has a definition on exploiting no ? So why don't you use it ? if everybody uses the same definiton of exploiting on FAL why not on normal servers ? we also can open a post here that will present few exploiting definition and let people vote for the one who will be used here...These are just some ideas, you decide. I'm not a King, I'm just a Knight.